Duration of IM training rides & runs, plus race day information

[BartDP]

Hi Prof, all,
people frequently ask me: “are you ready for your event (Ironman)?”, but I honestly don’t know. The program is guiding me well, but it gives me a program compatible with my settings (mid-Volume) and availability, but my longest runs and rides remain rather ‘short’ (<2h and <3h15, respectively). Yet, many Ironman guides recommend a few rides of 4-5+ hours and at least a few 2h30-3h runs. This is an issue that others here have brought up as well and I’ve read here in the Forum that I can extend the length of my long runs and rides, but then what’s the point of having a training program? I wish Athletica ai would at least alert me that it recommends a certain number of long rides / runs, even though this may not ‘fit’ in the allocated number of hours per week. That way, as an athlete, I could try to squeeze them in and as such perhaps feel more ready for the actual Ironman event. Any advice / suggestions here?

Also, I find the ‘race day’ annotation on the Training Plan underwhelming. Now it says: 12h00 goal because that’s the goal I put in initially. But given all the data the program will have been collecting until race day, it would be great to get at least some guidance as to what the program would recommend in terms of target paces for each of the sections based on my overall fitness by then. I guess I can infer that from the different charts but a final ‘summary’ would be empowering I feel. Would that be possible?
Thanks much.

[jockefc23]

There are lots of posts on here about the length of long runs and rides - in short if you do a longer session and feel good then the AI will start to notice in and prescribe longer sessions. But it’s being careful as the data shows these long efforts can lead to injuries and illness if not careful.

I do agree with you on the race information though. The one thing I love about Stryd and it’s system is that it’s constantly updating you on what power it thinks you should be running a race at and the goal time if you do that power. Would be nice to see something like that on here.

[Giuseppe85]

In my opinion, not doing race simulations is a major limitation of ATHLETICA…
For example, there are no open water sessions or 3x1000m repeats.
There are no 2-hour/30km long runs (not even in the Marathon Plan).
There are no long bike rides over 5 hours.
Is this right? I couldn’t say because I haven’t done my first triathlon yet.
In my marathon, I extended the planned runs from 28km to 34km…and I managed it very well. Now I’m doing open water with 3x900m/1000m repeats, and I think they’re essential! In any case, the Plan adapts to these changes, so follow what you think is right for you!

[BartDP]

In the ‘overview’ page, your critical pace in function of HR zone is displayed for each discipline (swim, bike, run) with the indication (e.g.): ‘long distance pace’. However, as indicated, not sure if this is meant to portray what you should be able to maintain in an actual Ironman, or is this just shown as if you would do each discipline separately…?

[BartDP]

I agree with you. That’s why I am wondering whether these are values for each discipline individually, but not combined; hence my request to Athletica ai to give us more guidance for race day…

[Marjaana]

Hey @SBR123 enjoy the final month of prep!

Thanks for your request, I think that’s an excellent idea, and will put this on our Listener Questions!

Here’s how I tackle prepping for IM pacing.
IF I am confident that my Bike Power and Run Profiles are up-to-date (Check what your AI Coach says), I will take a look at what power / pace I did my longest rides and runs.
Here’s mine:
Cycling profile. Look at your longest ride and average watts. Then evaluate: was this ride intensity sustainable for you? Was it done indoors/outdoors? How was your fueling? Ideally, you want to have practiced as close to race day conditions as possible, but sometimes it’s not possible. For example, I did all my rides in prep for IM WC in Nice last year inside because of where I live. I had to develop internal “feel” to know what intensity I can execute. Something that I learned from Gordo Byrn is to question myself several times during the ride: “Is this intensity something I can keep at the end of the ride?” “If I keep this intensity, will I have enough left for marathon?” “Can I keep this pace all day long?”

KEY POINT: Look at what you’ve done so far and estimate your race day pace out of that, not from the threshold numbers.

Running:
Same steps. Have a look at your Run Pace Profile and your longest runs. If your profile is up to date, and you’ve been doing your Sunday long runs (on slightly fatigued legs after Saturday’s brick sessions), your long run pace should be close to realistic of what you can execute on race day after WELL PACED Swim and Bike.

My VT1 predicted 5:56 min/km pace for 4hr marathon, I finished with 5:58 min/km (NGP) after a very hard bike in Nice, with a decent kick to finish with 1.6% aerobic decoupling and average HR 133 (Zone 2).

If you bike beyond what you’ve done in training, you’ll end up paying for it on the run. Knowing myself and what I had done in the training (stuck on a trainer, doing a lot of Strength Endurance work since I didn’t have any real hills), I used Live Workout Reserve to pace myself conservatively the very first 60K in Nice which was most of the climbing. A lot of people passed me on the climb, but I told myself to stay in my own race and I am very happy with the run, being able to run pretty solid, evenly paced run.

Key points:
look what you’ve done on training, evaluate your feel and check for similarities for your race topography etc.
Check what your Zone 2/3a targets are. Do they match with your executed rides/runs? Did you practice race day fueling during those key sessions?
For race day pacing plan: you should not deviate much from what you’ve done in training. Yes, maybe you’ve not completed the entire Ironman in practice, but you should have a pretty clear picture of your training pacing. Don’t expect to do much faster than you’ve done in practice. Race day is a long day.

Please let me know your thoughts and feel free to share screenshots of your key workouts &power/pace charts and we can craft your race plan together.

MJ

[BartDP]

Thanks so much MJ for all the useful info. Two days away from IM Thun, here are the latest charts for biking and swimming. Any final suggestions would be super.

For the running, it seems rather low and indeed, if I click on the last 3 months, the profile looks rather different…

All the best!

[Marjaana]

So exciting! Two more sleeps (or one since you’re in Europe). As @Prof says a day out: the most important muscle is the one between your ears

Based on your charts, I think you’re well below the 12 hour goal mark. Those chart are great to use as pacing anchors. You’ve done it in training, so no surprises on the race day. You should feel like you can go all day at the effort level. Based on your charts, looks like you can hold:
2:05-2:10min/100m swim - 1:20-1:25 swim
bike target power 185-200w - 5:35 -5:45 split - lots of climbing in Thun if I am not mistaken. All day pace effort. Coming off the bike I hope you will feel like you could have gone longer!
Run: aim for even splits starting around 5:45 - 6:10min/km. split around 4hrs?
How do those numbers coming from a complete stranger feel like? You know much better than I do. I think you’re gonna finish way before your goal time

It’s easy for me to just give these numbers based on your profile - but it is YOU who knows what you’ve done in training and how you felt. Stringing together swim-bike-run at these distances is more than just looking at the charts and go: “oh yeah, he can do XY and Z”. Your fueling, pacing, and self-talk will be determining factors on the day. There is something really powerful and elevating to be able to finish an Ironman strong. the last 10 K will be hard and you can’t wait to be done. My best advice is to go into the day with a mindset that yes it will be hurting, but you can take the hurt and embrace it. Smiling when something hurts physically or mentally tricks your brain. So smile as much as you can! Last 10K if you can find another gear, it is like flying high! If not, then focus on putting one foot ahead of the other. Finish line feels awaits!!

Please let us know how it goes! What’s your bib number so we can all track you?

MJ

[BartDP]

Thanks so much for your encouraging words, I’ll try to smile like the happiest kid on the planet ;)!
They gave me the last bib number: 1700, last but hopefully not least!
And yes, very curious to see now where the athletica program will have gotten me. I’ll let you know!
Cheers!

[BartDP]

Hi all, as promised

here’s a quick update on my race:
I couldn’t have dreamed for a better day, swim went better than expected followed by a solid ride where I think I nailed the conservative pacing plan ( Average power: ~200 W; Normalized power: ~246 W; Average heart rate: ~117 bpm), as my legs still felt OK after the bike part so I could still trot a 3h49 marathon! End time: 11h26 for a hilly course (around 2000m), so really happy with that, as a first timer.

Just a few hiccups with a dropped chain, my aero gear clip-ons not working unexpectedly and unexplainably for about 70 km, and an overactive bladder (perhaps because of the 19C lake water) which forced me off the bike twice in the first 90 km lap…but that’s it.
Conclusion:

1. Athletics AI did a heck of a job preparing me well. I did add longer runs and bike rides myself though, as per general recommendation. So while I will never know whether this made a difference, it did provide some mental peace, so perhaps the program should consider this.

2. I still find that it lacks a general pacing strategy that could be posted in the last taper week, so that us athletes don’t have to put together the pieces ourselves…

But as said, super easy to use / navigate, so I will be back! Will I do an IM again, probably not, as it became almost a second job, but hope to still do plenty of half IMs.

Cheers!

[Marjaana]

Congratulations Bart! I was tracking you as I tackled my own marathon and as I saw you at 26km on marathon I kept smiling for you! Super well done! That’s a solid marathon off the bike!

Yes, the pacing advice would be great to deliver through AI Coach. I’ll write this up with the team.
MJ

[BartDP]

Thanks MJ for the guidance and support and congrats on your marathon!! As said, I’ll be back. Cheers!

[cmaloney]

Congrats on your race - you did awesome!!

[Giuseppe85]

Wow, fantastic! Did you see that? You had a lot of doubts, and despite never having done long 6-hour bike rides or long runs over 30km (or am I wrong?), you had a fantastic IM!

How did you manage the last week?

[Jack]

This is a great pacing advice write up. I hope the team come to you for guidance when it is time to implement this into Athletica!