I’m pretty frustrated with how this is calculating my load. I just completed a five day workout week with no rest days so I showed up to my run this morning already a little tired. My day called for an hour and thirty six minute slow run between 123-143 HR but since I am going on vacation next week, I pushed it extremely hard on pace and HR, including 1,300 feet of climbing in very technical trail running. My average HR was 162 and I pushed to the point of exhaustion. I rated this a 9/10 RPE, the hardest workout I’ve done in a year.
My load for this run? 112. Versus a prescribed load of 111. Smh.
My Garmin says I had a load of 204 but apparently, the AI thinks I only did 112, which is .9% more than if I had taken it easy and jogged along at a 130HR. Without any climbing.
Not sure what is going on but I feel like I should be able to rely on the AI to figure this stuff out.
Dear @jbeech01 thank you for reporting this.
In this case the problem is that for running activities, Athletica uses speed and HR to estimate the load. We know this is sub-optimal, especially when we consider sessions with relevant elevation gain. I would also love to prompt a change in how the elevation gain is handled, to also facilitate the computation of the load for trail running. At the moment, however, Athletica is best suited for road running and no exceptional elevation gains. We truly hope we can get better and better in the future so we can handle these cases.
As you correctly highlight, RPE is also a metric that we should leverage to compute the load, but for the moment, if speed and HR are present, we use those metrics before we use RPE.
@Andrea , doesn’t NGP (normalized graded pace) account for elevation gain? I see that value in my Athletica run data, so I assume you are either transferring it from Garmin or calculating it. Does Athletica use NGP to calculate load and, if not, would using NGP solve this? TrainingPeaks uses NGP in its math for its running TSS (rTSS) value (see here).
Thanks @BrentK . Yes and no I would say, NGP enters the TSS calculation (given that the speed is adjusted with the gradient) but the elevation gain does not. The differences become particularly relevant when there are a lot of ups and downs (like in the example proposed by jbeech01), and less relevant when we have steady and gentle gradients.
When it comes to trail running I would consider the following issues in load calculation:
GPS accuracy reduced for the uneven terrain, often obstructions (trees), and low resolution of maps. This is also affecting power calculations, if someone is wearing a Stryd or similar.
Uneven terrain with rocks or grass and additional neuromuscular load to be accounted for (messy energy cost not accounted for in NGP).
All-in-all NGP can alleviate the problem when it comes to road running at low gradients, but there is some room for improvement when it comes to other activities where elevation gain is important, e.g. trail running, XC skiing, ski mountaineering, etc.
Interesting; I do a lot of steep trail running and the AI doesn’t seem to handle well, so this is very helpful thank you. Should I be manually adjusting the load and if yes how to calculate or guess at a better number? The trail running is also impacting the recommended paces for flats but the two are apples and oranges, any thoughts or suggestions here?
We hear you guys, yes, Athletica is best suited for road running at the very moment, but we have strong interest in trail running and other mountain activities.
Yes, manually adjusting the load can be done by changing the value in the corresponding box.
As a side note I can say that if HR and RPE are present, you can find the value of the training load estimated with those metrics at the bottom of the analysis.
For example, @jbeech01, using RPE, you can see that the estimated load was around 200 for the particular run we were discussing about.
I understand that I “can” update the RPE but I am asking if I need to update it. I need this tool (which I’ve prepaid a year for) to be able to get me ready to run my target run in March of next year. It’s running across the Grand Canyon twice in one day so road running doesn’t help me prepare well. Not to mention that my long runs stipulate “undulating terrain.”
Do I NEED to be updating the load numbers manually for the AI to accurately prescribe the correct amount of training necessary to get me to my goal?
Also, I don’t see those other load numbers on my end. Just the regular load number.
Hi @jbeech01,
I’ll just chime in with more my coaching hat on for what it’s worth. I’m viewing your profile and it appears you’re nailing your Athletica sessions for the most part. The sessions in that plan are as you note, often meant to be conducted on undulating terrain to help specifically simulate the demands you’ll face. Additionally, you’ll note the prescribed hill sprints or uphill sections that again are meant to prepare you for the strength component you’ll require. I’ll let @Andrea respond but I would personally not be updating those load numbers as currently they appear (to me at least) to be quantifying your load (stress) demands adequately. I would however be cautious about combining HIIT work days back to back. Personally I like to have at least 2 to 3 days separating those harder workouts with rest or easier days in between. Remember the key is to stress the body and then recover adequately. My 2c.
Also noting you are using running power and I feel that this is potentially a technical solution to the issue’s we’re discussing.
Best,
Paul
Thanks Paul. That’s helpful and yes, my watch keeps track of running power, glad to hear that’s an additional data point that’s being considered.
One quick question around HIIT, those runs are usually scheduled for Tuesday and Thursday but I’m trying to take one day off during the week (in addition to Sunday)
This is usually Thursday but when looking at my Wednesday and Thursday runs to decide which to delete, the Wednesday run is an easy run and the Thursday is a HIIT run. Since my weekend hilly long runs aren’t registering the load numbers I need, I’ve been keeping the higher Thursday HIIT and moving it to Wednesday, deleting the easier Wednesday run. Meaning I now have my Tuesday HIIT and then on Wednesday, my prescribed Thursday HIIT run, and then Thursday off. Especially since I take Sunday off, running a recovery run on Monday and then a HIIT run on Tuesday isn’t really taking much out of me so a rest on Wednesday seems too early. But…
Would it be better to:
A) keep my two back to back HIIT runs on Tues and Wed, potentially making recovery and performance tougher on the second HIIT run but making my Friday long run better since I’m resting on the day after on Thursday.
B) take Wednesday off, doing my HIIT on Tues and Thurs, meaning my Thursday HIIT would be rested but my long Friday and Saturday runs would come on the heels of that HIIT run, potentially making those less efficient/productive.
For me, that wouldn’t be a reason to skip those. You’ve stated above that your Grand Canyon event will be big - long and hilly. So to me, that long weekend hilly run is your priority session. It mimics the demands you will face.
To your options, my recommendation would be more in line with your (B), but a tad different. What about the following. Monday you ease back into things. Tuesday Aerobic. Wednesday HIIT. Thurs rest to absorb the HIIT. Friday tempo/threshold. And then Saturday long zone 2. Keep in mind with any of the red zone work you’re always leaving the session like you could have done a couple more. The key to success is volume accumulation and training consistency. The goal is to keep healthy and continually train. If ever a key hard workout doesn’t feel right due to a niggle or fatigue, switch it up to an easy walk/run. Live to train another day.
Not yet on the request @jbeech01 … but that’s on our dev list. For now you’ll need to observe each week and make those moves yourself (including leveraging workout wizard). This is good practice though. Each time you get to Sunday rest day, its good to reflect on your past week and look ahead to the coming week. Moving your sessions into place means you are putting your head around what you aim to accomplish and that, to me, is an important part of the process.
I’m sorry, maybe I’m not understanding this correctly, I am just supposed to make up my own workout schedule for three of the five days? I guess that’s why I hired AAI.
I’ll chime in with my three year experience with Athletica.
If your schedule is fixed, you could use the time constraints feature as a beta tester. You would still likely need to do some adjustments ( like HIIT workouts on specific days in case they don’t fall into your tue&thu)
I personally like to plan my week on the weekend and drag high demand workouts to days when I know I don’t have anything else stressful.
You don’t need to design your own workouts. Of course you can if that’s what you want. (I’m reading between the lines that you don’t). All the workouts you need are already there. You need to think of your race demand and train so you will be ready for it. For example I did my bike training indoors because I live in flat area and my a race had 2400m elevation. So I did a lot more strength endurance than athletica asked me to. You kinda have to make those individual decisions. I am sure this can be solved in the future where you can tell athletica : “please prepare me for a hilly race. “
Fitness numbers are of course super helpful - and we all want the training load calculations to be correct. Trail running, treadmill running or indoor cycling (no wind resistance/ heat/cold weather impact) are real-world situations where True physiological Load is near impossible to estimate. All load estimations will be off. Your body and mind only “knows” the internal load.
To make my point clear(er) I ran through Houston summer in nasty hot temperatures- was my load calculations correct? Heck no. Did my program get me ready for my race? Heck yeah!
AI is never going to be 100% correct. YOU know your body best. Trust your gut / if you feel like you need to run a little more or in hillier terrain make sure you do that: don’t just chase the numbers.
Hope you find a solution that you are happy with. Let me know if you want to learn how I’ve made my individual adaptations.
BTW. You’ve already directly spoken to the people in charge (@Prof and @Andrea ) we are working really hard to provide solutions for trail running and other sports like cross- country skiing where load is very difficult to estimate. Please hang tight with us we appreciate your help in understanding what our athletes need. sorry the long reply….
That makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.
I was just told that I need to make “Friday a tempo/threshold” and I have no idea how to come up with a workout that would fit that type without creating something myself. I can move workouts around but don’t know how to create a specific workout. Especially as the training plan progresses and they need to go longer over time.
For now, I’ll just stick with whatever workouts the program assigns me and perhaps just adjust the days those workouts occur.
Can you tell me specifically what training plan are you using. Marathon, half, ultra? Base, build?
Here’s what I would do.
Look ahead and find tempo and threshold session - they will be there. You can save those to your own library, and when needed; they ou can bring either a tempo (usually zone3 continuous effort) or threshold 4-8x 1-2k efforts at zone 4 effort.
Let me know how you get on.
MJ
I’m doing ultra training for a rim to rim to rim Grand Canyon run in March, 2025.
And you lost me at “when needed” regarding putting my saved workouts on to my own schedule.
Over the past 12 years, I’ve done two full Ironman races, several half IM, too many marathons and half marathons to count and did the Leadville Trail 100 Run last year and have created or planned my own workouts “when needed” approximately zero times. Not once in all those years of running and triathlon training have I designed or followed my own workout plan. Maybe some people do but I wouldn’t know where to start. I have always followed a preset plan or had a coach who assigned me workouts.
Sorry, but there just isn’t any way I’m going to suddenly start grabbing workouts and putting them on my calendar when I don’t have the faintest idea of what I’m doing.
No worries! I’d like to invite you to a Google meet call so that I can exactly understand what it is that you are looking for, and I can better explain what I mean “when needed”
If you send me a private message and give me couple of times during the day when you could jump on a call, I will send you a meeting link.
Best,
MJ
We hear you guys, yes, Athletica is best suited for road running at the very moment, but we have strong interest in trail running and other mountain activities.
we are working really hard to provide solutions for trail running and other sports like cross- country skiing where load is very difficult to estimate. Please hang tight with us 
