Required test week within 6 weeks to prevent power curve to go down

[nicoguilbert]

I have been following the plan for about 5 to 6 weeks now and I have noticed my power curve went down.

This is impacting workouts as I assume they are based on power curve.
CP went down by about 30W but I was able to change it back manually.
APR is also lower which means my HIIT targets are 40W lower and I have no way to manually action this (other than manually editing workouts)

I understand the best way to address this is to run a testing session.

My concern is that if one follows the plan, ERG activated, as there are no breakthrough workouts, no testing sessions scheduled, the power curve will keep going down.
If workouts rely on last 6 weeks power curve, it should be required to test within those 6 weeks, if there has been no near maximal effort within last 6 weeks

[Marjaana]

Hey @nicoguilbert

I would recommend not using ERG mode, because as you say, you’re capping your upper target - hence no breakthrough workouts. you’re limiting yourself.
Always have to upper target open when working out, this way, you can always go by day’s feel and naturally progress. One day, you’ll be stronger and ready to crank out a PR.

Your power/pace targets are based on the 6month CP which you’ll find under “Overview” and “Athlete Zones”… In the power/pace profile chart, you’ll see your last 6week, 3month, this year, 2024 & 2023, and all. Workouts rely on longer interval, so don’t worry. If you want to test&retest, you could do so every 2-3 months to check on your progress. I think personally every 1-1.5month is extensive testing.

Best, MJ

[nicoguilbert]

Thank you @Marjaana for taking the time to review and answer.

You’re right, the 30" target matches perfectly the sprint zone 6
But is this zone relying entirely on CP ?
Given the below screenshots it seems my zones have been changed between Monday recovery ride and today’s 30/30, getting at the same time a higher Z1/2 (form 127-244 to 132-255), a 5% increase, and lower Z6 (from 395-474 to 360-432), a 10% decrease
If power targets rely on CP, shouldn’t they all go the same way ?

This is the workouts I had 2 weeks ago

And the ones this week

Next week recovery ride

Also thank you for your recommendations, I still prefer the convenience of ERG, it is my way of doing intensity control
If Athletica relies on 6 months profile (or whatever duration), then it would be good to integrate those required testing days into the plan, not necessarily an dedicated testing week, to avoid disrupting the plan/load.

[amn2099]

Just a thought or idea. Try doing 30/30s without erg and holding the highest, sustainable cadence. I think it provides a different stimulus and engages the neuromuscular side of things.

[thekappe]

That’s definitely interesting. I had also noticed that there are no “testing weeks” in my plan (7 month long distance TRI). I then thought that probably there are some “particular” workouts that will “work” as testing but it doesn’t seem to be the case.

Before using athletica I was used to retest myself every 6-8 weeks.

Which is the reccomandation now ? Just avoid using ERG for VO2 workouts and push as hard as I can ? Add a test week every 6-8 weeks of consistent training ?

thanks

[nicoguilbert]

My zone are back to last week after I have accepted a change in Z6, but so is my CP.

To illustrate
CP @ 303
Z4 from 305 to 349
Z6 from 391 to 469

If I increase my CP, Z6 goes down, Z7 goes up to 1077
CP @ 323
Z4 from 318 to 340
Z6 from 360 to 432

I struggle to find a logic here

[Marjaana]

Hello,
There are a few options for you.
Test after 6-8 weeks as you have prior : you can save your test workouts from test week to your library and swop with a higher intensity workout on your chosen week.
Or, you can do vo2max workout with a few primers like we do on Velocity sessions, and execute couple of those primers as hard as you can. Ideally you’d want to do a 4-5 min and a longer duration honest effort, like 10-12 mins as well for critical power updates. Or you can use FTP test if that’s what you’d prefer.

Not everyone enjoy tests. They can be really demanding both physically and mentally, so we have chosen not to include frequent maximal efforts. You can schedule them for yourself as you see fit though.

Hope this helps.
MJ

[Marjaana]

@Andrea could you please check @nicoguilbert ‘s message and zones?
Thanks

[thekappe]

Hello @Marjaana !

Thanks for your reply. I agree, nobody likes tests. Anyway, how do you measure improvements ?

I’m not a coach but I think that at the end of 6 months of honest training, my zone 2 should be a little bit different from day 0 (at least I hope so ).

Having recurring tests will ensure that your zones are kept aligned with your fitness status. Otherwise after some months of training my aerobic workouts won’t be aeorobic anymore but more recovery ones. Am I wrong ?

Thanks

F

[Andrea]

Thanks @nicoguilbert @thekappe @Marjaana @amn2099 you’re touching very important points.

“Having recurring tests will ensure that your zones are kept aligned with your fitness status.”
This is so true and, as Marjaana says, not every athlete greets test day with equal enthusiasm

As maximum efforts done during tests are slipping away from the 6-month window used to build the profile, our thresholds might change. If racing is not that frequent that max efforts are repeated on a regular basis (for the majority of the athletes) then, as you all noticed building a reliable profile becomes problematic.

We are exploring the possibility to include tests in the Workout Wizard and prompt the athlete to take a test when we notice a unrealistic change in the thresholds. It will most likely be included for a key session of the week, where the body has to be perfectly tuned for a test.

RE thresholds. Athletica currently relies on CP for the Z3-Z4 separation, MAP for the Z5-Z6 separation, and MPP for the Z6-Z7 determination. However, if you pre-select your own CP, all the zones are taken as % of that threshold.

MAP, which is guiding the boundary between Z5 and 6 is heavily influenced by max efforts <5’, and very much by a 5’ maximum average. The best you can do if you find that your 30":30" are prescribed too low, is to take a 5’ all-out time trial test instead of doing a 30":30" session. Now, we are perfectly aware of the fact that this should be prescribed by the AI-coach. To the same extent, MPP is guided by 5-10" efforts, and CP is influenced by max efforts within <1h. So a way to influence CP is to do max efforts at 3’, 12’, 20’, etc. Ideally, these can be gathered by the application of what we call “invisible monitoring”, given that, from time to time, athletes naturally push themselves to the limits on those time ranges.

Again, we so much agree with what you reported, and we look forward to implement “test” sessions in the WW.

You can find more info here: How Athletica Closes the Cycle: From Athlete Profiling to Training Prescription  | Athletica

[nicoguilbert]

Thanks @Andrea this is clear to me now how the zones are set.
I guess I will have to manually plan a testing session to update CP.

Can’t wait to see those test sessions in the WW !

[thekappe]

Hello @Andrea ! Thanks a lot for your reply !

“This is so true and, as Marjaana says, not every athlete greets test day with equal enthusiasm”
Yeah, I feel you on that. I do not like tests too but hey, why I am working out 12 hours a week ? What’s driving me ? I perfectly know that if I want to get the best from my workouts, test sessions have a central role. Probably the main one as intensity (TSS/FTI/TrainingLoad) in the end is just a weighted sum of % of FTP/CP over time, at least as far as I know.

For plans during more than 2 months tests should matters especially for pace/power zones. Otherwise why training at all ?

In my opinion (but hey, it’s just mine) test workouts should take priority over standard workouts. The user should eventually have the opportunity to replace them as a second choice through WW.

moreover, thank you for the explanation about the thresholds. Essentially, as I understand it, in order to keep the thresholds updated, one should include workouts with maximum efforts of 5/10/15/20 minutes from time to time.

This makes me think that the classic test workouts:

• 1K TT for swimming
• 30 min TT for cycling
• 5K TT for running

may not be entirely sufficient to allow the system to correctly detect all the thresholds.
Therefore, it is necessary to manually insert the “standard tests” into the plan, manually record the threshold values for pace/power/HR, and manually update the thresholds in the main screen.

Is that correct?

Thank you,
F

[Phil]

@Andrea

If racing is not that frequent that max efforts are repeated on a regular basis (for the majority of the athletes) then, as you all noticed building a reliable profile becomes problematic.

You’ll also find for ultra distance / long distance brevets that the former is not racing in terms of the conventional durations and the latter isn’t racing at all. Thus without Athletica scheduling it or an athlete going off plan, you’re not going to get the maximum efforts for the durations you want for the model.

I actually quite like testing now and again, but as said above, an option to have them scheduled at a suitable period would be nice. It could even be a setting in an athlete’s profile.

[thekappe]

Yep, I am with you in this one. I thought it too and forgot to mention it.